Ordering R7 Surf Help with Options

[Tuscany]

BB, I hear you, but from all of the VP reps I’ve talked to, that’s the one thing they all agree on. The long blocks/internal parts are exactly the same. A simple software tune is the difference between the two...which tells me that there is no freaking way the 430 is worth the 11K premium they are charging. Nice profit bump for VP for no added expense.

Yesterday, the guys from my marina came over to fix my sport20 charger, and I asked them what they found out about it. They said that VP ECUs are serialized with the engine, married and locked. They will not sell an ECU unless they get the “faulty” one back first, and issue the same settings in return.
The one thing I can tell you is that they run pretty good.. A throttle spike no matter the speed, the engine is so responsive that it will knock you on your backside if you are not sitting down. The RPM it runs does take a little getting used to. It’s wound right up..

I’m going to the International boat show in Toronto in January. VP will have a huge display, I’ll get to the bottom of it all when I have someone to talk to face to face.

From boating magazine-

It needed hard part changes too. We had to change the cams and valves and grind the heads differently to make another 50 horsepower,” Huddleston said

B,
You are looking at the old 6.0L platform. That ended around May of 17' when VP started shipping the new 6.2L updated platform. Some 17' models have (re: got stuck) with it, but not mine.. I made sure of it before it was built.
I have a 6.0L in my truck. Same engine and a total dog. I can see where they needed to make hard part changes.
My wife has the new DI 6.2L platform, same as in our boat, and its a flat our runner.

[Tuscany]

BB, I hear you, but from all of the VP reps I’ve talked to, that’s the one thing they all agree on. The long blocks/internal parts are exactly the same. A simple software tune is the difference between the two...which tells me that there is no freaking way the 430 is worth the 11K premium they are charging. Nice profit bump for VP for no added expense.

50hp out of an ECU tune on a naturally aspirated egine is difficult to believe. Out of a forced induction engine sure, just run more boost and fuel N/A is way harder to get that much hp out of /w just a tune. But who knows, /w variable vale timing and other magic maybe.

Doesn't matter how they are doing it, 11k is a crazy premium.

/Mr. Nauti Out.

Absolutely agree.
Unless they can pack more charge into the combustion chamber which they can not without forced induction, or change the lift and duration of a cam shaft, which they can not, timing can only buy a small amount of power... Were talking about less than a 9% claimed gain for almost 11K. I guess if they retard the timing enough on the 380, and advance it enough on the 430, they can come up with the 8.6% difference. Both engines run a 11.5 to 1 compression ratio.

If you look at VP's advertised improvements. the old vs. new 380 claimed a 25% improvement, where the old vs. new 430 claims 15%.
So its obvious that the gap between the two has closed, which lends to the fact that they are the same engine.

[Ytmsn]

What you're saying make perfect sense Tusc. I think you have converted me and made me a believer. Especially when it comes to an 11k upgrade with the same 6.2 motor... Cubic inches are cubic inches. So getting the extra horsepower in a different fuel map makes sense if they can do it cheaper and charge a lot.

From that standpoint what makes most sense is the company beancounters maximizing profitability. If they can come up with 10 or 15% power increase with just a different fuel map and charge their crazy high prices they will.

We have all seen the obscene high parts cost at one time or another. I understand our boats are premium and you have to pay a little extra. But getting raped is a whole 'nother story...
Case in point; Yesterday I called our local dealer to price a Ritchie in-dash compass sending unit, as mine is mounted in the corner of the ski locker and has been damaged. $386.00. Three HUNDRED eighty six bucks. That's just for the part. The labor is going to be an additional $200 to $300.

I found one on EBay, new in the box, the exact same part. $70 bucks shipped. And it looks like it will be pretty easy to install.

Z, the 380 HP option is probably your motor. Read Tuscanys thread on his boat and when he took delivery. In a nutshell, he ordered a 380 6.2 and discovered he got the 430 option on delivery. Its a pretty cool story.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=441

Let us know what you decide!

[liquid]

What you're saying make perfect sense Tusc. I think you have converted me and made me a believer. Especially when it comes to an 11k upgrade with the same 6.2 motor... Cubic inches are cubic inches. So getting the extra horsepower in a different fuel map makes sense if they can do it cheaper and charge a lot.

From that standpoint what makes most sense is the company beancounters maximizing profitability. If they can come up with 10 or 15% power increase with just a different fuel map and charge their crazy high prices they will.

We have all seen the obscene high parts cost at one time or another. I understand our boats are premium and you have to pay a little extra. But getting raped is a whole 'nother story...
Case in point; Yesterday I called our local dealer to price a Ritchie in-dash compass sending unit, as mine is mounted in the corner of the ski locker and has been damaged. $386.00. Three HUNDRED eighty six bucks. That's just for the part. The labor is going to be an additional $200 to $300.

I found one on EBay, new in the box, the exact same part. $70 bucks shipped. And it looks like it will be pretty easy to install.

Z, the 380 HP option is probably your motor. Read Tuscanys thread on his boat and when he took delivery. In a nutshell, he ordered a 380 6.2 and discovered he got the 430 option on delivery. Its a pretty cool story.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=441

Let us know what you decide!

Made me a believer. redacts 430 chant.

380! 380! 380!

[jhnmdahl]

FWIW, I bought a V8-225 in my boat, which is part-for-part the same as the 5.7L V8-300 except for the ECU. I've tasked Bigblock with finding me such an ECU on the cheap, but nothing yet

[NautiGirl]

FWIW, I bought a V8-225 in my boat, which is part-for-part the same as the 5.7L V8-300 except for the ECU. I've tasked Bigblock with finding me such an ECU on the cheap, but nothing yet

I am not doubting you or trying to be nasty, but a 75hp change in a naturally aspirated engine without changing anything other than the ECU is very difficult to believe. Tuscany outlined it very well so I won't rehash what he said, but there is only so much timing you can add, and dumping fuel into the engine without adding extra air to the mix isn’t going to help.

In a car you could work on things like exhaust and intake flow, but those really don’t apply to boats and honestly they only net maybe 5 - 10hp in the auto world anyway.

Maybe they are understating the hp on the 225 and overstating it on the 300?

I would love to see Dyno graphs from VP that prove the HP gain. If anyone can find you an ECU its BBP, maybe we will just have to rely on the butt dyno once you make the change.

[jhnmdahl]

Nauti, I don't think they're doing anything magic to the V8-300 so much as strongly detuning it to produce V8-225, to make emissions and economy numbers while still providing V8-like torque at lower rpm. In other words, it's not adding 75hp to a previously-optimized engine, but subtracting 75hp in peak hp from a hp-optimized engine to end up with an engine designed for improved efficiency, emissions, etc.. while still keeping enough low-end torque to get on plane in 3.5 seconds and pull strong for watersports.

Note the two engines are mechanically exactly the same - 5.7L V8 blocks. As for verifying the parts are otherwise all the same, there are a handful of places online that list all the parts but it's easiest to see here:

https://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/vo ... 02831.aspx

(Note the throttle bodies have the same part number, but the plastic cover and sticker also differ to reflect the different hp rating)

John

[NautiGirl]

That makes sense...I guess. It's jsut a big hp jump up or down for an ECU change alone. Are emissions requirements different between the two? They are both V8 boat engines, I honestly dont know how or if the EPA regulates them.

As far as economy who in the world looks at fuel economy in a boat engine? Let alone a V8?

Anyway back on topic, he should totally get the largest engine offered, cost be damned. Hell its not my money, why not?

[Tuscany]

That makes sense...I guess. It's jsut a big hp jump up or down for an ECU change alone. Are emissions requirements different between the two? They are both V8 boat engines, I honestly dont know how or if the EPA regulates them.

As far as economy who in the world looks at fuel economy in a boat engine? Let alone a V8?

Anyway back on topic, he should totally get the largest engine offered, cost be damned. Hell its not my money, why not?

[jhnmdahl]

It meets a different emissions spec, which I didn't care so much about, but cruising rpm fuel economy was a nice benefit. Our decision was between the V8-225 and the V6-270, which had worse on-plane time, worse fuel economy, and didn't have any easy option to upgrade. The biggest thing for me was that it runs the same (torque curve) as the V8-300 until you hit about 4900rpm, but cost over $5k less.

And the ECU at retail is around $1200, should I change my mind. With the duo-prop, its acceleration is pretty snappy, so we'll see if I'm ever tempted to make the change.

[Tuscany]

VP ECUs are locked, therefore VP buyers are completely locked out unless an aftermarket company decides there is enough business to invest the time in developing a performance ECU to sell. I don't see that happening, especially since they run so well, and are highly efficient out of the box...and not to mention if the EPA gets wind of it, the tuner company can be slapped with an enormous 6 figure fine.

I don't think Merc ECUs are locked yet, but that's coming, especially with the EPA mandates. I’m surprised we haven’t seen new Merc high efficient engines yet. I’m sure those will be coming also..my guess is kiss the big block 502 good shortly.
The new 6.2l VP has reduced emissions by 95%. That's where Merc will have to be..

So Z, there is the info you were looking for...we hope.

[NautiGirl]

Welcome to CobaltChat Zach. You ask a simple question, we ramble and argue for four pages about topics vaguely related to your original question, then finally get around to a real answer for you. That answer generally involves you spending more money than you originally planned.

It's how this all works

[AsLan7]

VP ECUs are locked, therefore VP buyers are completely locked out unless an aftermarket company decides there is enough business to invest the time in developing a performance ECU to sell. I don't see that happening, especially since they run so well, and are highly efficient out of the box...and not to mention if the EPA gets wind of it, the tuner company can be slapped with an enormous 6 figure fine.

I don't think Merc ECUs are locked yet, but that's coming, especially with the EPA mandates. I’m surprised we haven’t seen new Merc high efficient engines yet. I’m sure those will be coming also..my guess is kiss the big block 502 good shortly.
The new 6.2l VP has reduced emissions by 95%. That's where Merc will have to be..

So Z, there is the info you were looking for...we hope.

.
Great points.
My two cents.
Agreed, T on the VP lockout.

I believe Whipple has the licensing agreement to remap the Merc ECU. It’s also one of the reasons you can replace the entire intake manifold with their product vs an add on to the front intake.
https://whipplesuperchargers.com/index. ... duct_id=52

As far as 6.2 L differences between the 380 & 430 horsies, my hunch is that it’s now an ECU tune only. Volvo marinized that GM Block and thru their advancements, Engineers were able to eake out 430 HP thru DFI, cam profiles, timing, etc. The 380 is just detuned to fill a niche market between the 350 hp & 430. In the past, there used to be more differences such as forged cranks vs cast. More aggressive cam profiles. Valve openings. Etc. With this new generation of Volvo engines, ECU/PCM difference only.

I expect Merc to follow. Goodbye 8.1’s & 8.2’s.

6.2L—Lighter engine—more horsepower. ECU program the only diff with this latest modern engines from VP.

Looking forward to your findings when you return from Boat show, T.

.


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[Tuscany]

And we regularly hijack our own threads..

Yes A7, I totally agree.
Whipple screw chargers are the best!
Efficient, and last..

[liquid]

Welcome to CobaltChat Zach. You ask a simple question, we ramble and argue for four pages about topics vaguely related to your original question, then finally get around to a real answer for you. That answer generally involves you spending more money than you originally planned.

It's how this all works

At least we talked about engines the whole time. Also, we learned. About engines and each other.