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I am also against diesels. Pay $10K out of the gate...pay higher maintenance costs...and once it gets over 100K and your emission warranty expires, big bucks to fix emissions stuff. You will never save enough money over gas to make it worth it if you think you are saving money.

In addition, if you go with a 3/4T, that heavy diesel engine eats into your payload.

I wouldn't be buying these Mercedes Sprinters either if you want a camping van. Ford Transit vans are going to take over that market.

Great advice and appreciated. I had an F-350 I traded for the Raptor two months before Covid showed up. Bought the R5 and have kicked myself multiple times but don't miss the cost of the diesel truck. Now that I am retired the 7.3 Ford is attractive to take the boat on longer (200 mile +) trips. Raptors are great daily drivers and are OK for for short haul towing. KC to Colorado though would be a tough haul with it.

An F150 (non Raptor) with either the 5.0 or 3.5 eco will pull an R5 with ease and get better mileage while doing it. I have a 19’ F150 3.5 eco and a 17 F350 6.2 in my garage. They both serve a purpose but you don’t need the higher cost of a Superduty to pull an R5. I would tow any boat up to about 10,000lbs with my wife’s F150 anywhere in the country.

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:01 pm An F150 (non Raptor) with either the 5.0 or 3.5 eco will pull an R5 with ease and get better mileage while doing it. I have a 19’ F150 3.5 eco and a 17 F350 6.2 in my garage. They both serve a purpose but you don’t need the higher cost of a Superduty to pull an R5. I would tow any boat up to about 10,000lbs with my wife’s F150 anywhere in the country.

+1

I have a 2019 Navigator L with the Raptor-spec Ecoboost and I have pulled my A25 from CA --> Table Rock --> CA twice now and will do it again this upcoming summer.

Other than the abysmal gas mileage towing, it's more than capable for this load.

I do still wish it was a diesel when I'm towing the boat or the race trailer, though. Low RPM and long runs between fuel stops are pretty hard to beat.

- Mark

mdadgar wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:09 pm

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:01 pm An F150 (non Raptor) with either the 5.0 or 3.5 eco will pull an R5 with ease and get better mileage while doing it. I have a 19’ F150 3.5 eco and a 17 F350 6.2 in my garage. They both serve a purpose but you don’t need the higher cost of a Superduty to pull an R5. I would tow any boat up to about 10,000lbs with my wife’s F150 anywhere in the country.

+1

I have a 2019 Navigator L with the Raptor-spec Ecoboost and I have pulled my A25 from CA --> Table Rock --> CA twice now and will do it again this upcoming summer.

Other than the abysmal gas mileage towing, it's more than capable for this load.

I do still wish it was a diesel when I'm towing the boat or the race trailer, though. Low RPM and long runs between fuel stops are pretty hard to beat.

- Mark

The Navigator is a better tow rig than a Raptor. The engine isn’t the weak point, the Raptor suspension isn’t meant to tow or haul anything of any size.

I agree that the new big diesels are definitely nicer when towing a big trailer. I drive from Minnesota to Idaho, Montana and Wyoming a couple times a winter to ride snowmobile (when they have snow ). I have a 17 F350 6.2 gas and I get about 7 mpg running 80 with large enclosed trailer. A couple friends of mine have Ford and Chevy diesels and they only get about 3 mpg’s better running right with me. With the cost of gas typically at least .50 cents per gallon cheaper and my gas engine doesn’t burn any def fluid it’s not any cheaper to drive the diesels than it is to drive my little gas engine. Also when it gets -20 or -30 below I don’t have to worry about diesel fuel jelling up or how to plug my truck in because it won’t start. I like the power of the diesels but gas engines are just easier sometimes.

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:02 pm

mdadgar wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:09 pm

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:01 pm An F150 (non Raptor) with either the 5.0 or 3.5 eco will pull an R5 with ease and get better mileage while doing it. I have a 19’ F150 3.5 eco and a 17 F350 6.2 in my garage. They both serve a purpose but you don’t need the higher cost of a Superduty to pull an R5. I would tow any boat up to about 10,000lbs with my wife’s F150 anywhere in the country.

+1

I have a 2019 Navigator L with the Raptor-spec Ecoboost and I have pulled my A25 from CA --> Table Rock --> CA twice now and will do it again this upcoming summer.

Other than the abysmal gas mileage towing, it's more than capable for this load.

I do still wish it was a diesel when I'm towing the boat or the race trailer, though. Low RPM and long runs between fuel stops are pretty hard to beat.

- Mark

The Navigator is a better tow rig than a Raptor. The engine isn’t the weak point, the Raptor suspension isn’t meant to tow or haul anything of any size.

Yes, agreed. The Raptors are too softly sprung to tow well. I was agreeing with your "non-Raptor F150" comment.

Honestly, I wish someone made an airbag kit for the rear of the Navigator. I get a little more squat than I'd like but I just live with it.

- Mark

mdadgar wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:26 pm

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:02 pm

mdadgar wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:09 pm

+1

I have a 2019 Navigator L with the Raptor-spec Ecoboost and I have pulled my A25 from CA --> Table Rock --> CA twice now and will do it again this upcoming summer.

Other than the abysmal gas mileage towing, it's more than capable for this load.

I do still wish it was a diesel when I'm towing the boat or the race trailer, though. Low RPM and long runs between fuel stops are pretty hard to beat.

- Mark

The Navigator is a better tow rig than a Raptor. The engine isn’t the weak point, the Raptor suspension isn’t meant to tow or haul anything of any size.

Yes, agreed. The Raptors are too softly sprung to tow well. I was agreeing with your "non-Raptor F150" comment.

Honestly, I wish someone made an airbag kit for the rear of the Navigator. I get a little more squat than I'd like but I just live with it.

- Mark

I’m surprised the Navigator doesn’t come with air bags. We had an Expedition back in 08 or 09 and I ordered that with load leveling rear air suspension right from Ford. I install air bags in all of our trucks, F150’s of F350’s.

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:36 pm

mdadgar wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:26 pm

Snowman8 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:02 pm

The Navigator is a better tow rig than a Raptor. The engine isn’t the weak point, the Raptor suspension isn’t meant to tow or haul anything of any size.

Yes, agreed. The Raptors are too softly sprung to tow well. I was agreeing with your "non-Raptor F150" comment.

Honestly, I wish someone made an airbag kit for the rear of the Navigator. I get a little more squat than I'd like but I just live with it.

I’m surprised the Navigator doesn’t come with air bags. We had an Expedition back in 08 or 09 and I ordered that with load leveling rear air suspension right from Ford. I install air bags in all of our trucks, F150’s of F350’s.

The previous generation did and it was apparently a reliability nightmare. The internet is full of steel spring conversion kits. I'm sure the Ford designers are scarred over that.

I am more surprised that someone hasn't done an aftermarket kit, though. Between this and the Expedition, that's a lot of units built.

- Mark

Well, broke down and purchased an F350 (2019) with the gas 6.2. Does great with the R5. Now to find a gently used R30....

Sieben wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:00 am Well, broke down and purchased an F350 (2019) with the gas 6.2. Does great with the R5. Now to find a gently used R30....

Good choice...your Raptor barely has payload to tow the R5 let alone anything bigger.

bruceb58 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:46 am

Sieben wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:00 am Well, broke down and purchased an F350 (2019) with the gas 6.2. Does great with the R5. Now to find a gently used R30....

Good choice...your Raptor barely has payload to tow the R5 let alone anything bigger.

If someone already had a Raptor (and wanted to keep it), I wonder how much something like this air bag kit would help?

https://www.airliftcompany.com/shop/89413/

Gas vs Diesel-- All points are spot on....Diesel wins over 7500lbs in my book, but more for the suspension that comes with a HD truck. I would be curious to see what towing with the 3L duramax in a Denali is like.

Now, let's forget about towing for a second. What about trailer launching bigger boats. The 3/5/7, 4/6/8 series are relatively managable, but woudl an R30 or an A series potentially become a challenge finding a ramp? Those are some big boats that might present a problem with ramp length and depth or possibly parking lot room to maneuver the trailer.

Just another thought to consider.

jhnmdahl wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:55 pm

bruceb58 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:46 am

Sieben wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:00 am Well, broke down and purchased an F350 (2019) with the gas 6.2. Does great with the R5. Now to find a gently used R30....

Good choice...your Raptor barely has payload to tow the R5 let alone anything bigger.

If someone already had a Raptor (and wanted to keep it), I wonder how much something like this air bag kit would help?

https://www.airliftcompany.com/shop/89413/

Won't increase payload. In fact it would be reduced by the weight of the air bags.

sailor55330 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:41 pm Gas vs Diesel-- All points are spot on....Diesel wins over 7500lbs in my book, but more for the suspension that comes with a HD truck. I would be curious to see what towing with the 3L duramax in a Denali is like.

The suspension between a HD truck in either diesel or gas is identical which is also why a gas truck has more payload than a diesel if equipped similarly.

My next truck will be a HD model and it will be gas.

bruceb58 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:04 pm

jhnmdahl wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:55 pm

bruceb58 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:46 am
Good choice...your Raptor barely has payload to tow the R5 let alone anything bigger.

If someone already had a Raptor (and wanted to keep it), I wonder how much something like this air bag kit would help?

https://www.airliftcompany.com/shop/89413/

Won't increase payload. In fact it would be reduced by the weight of the air bags.

Is the Raptor's biggest issue payload, or a suspension more set up for Baja than for towing? I've only driven one once, and don't know a ton about them.