Tower Speaker Help

[Big Block Power]

I take it your boat is in The driveway? Can you take pictures of your tower speakers and can you see the wiring up there?

[AsLan7]

If it was my boat I would run all new speaker wire to everything and then add amps to provide every speaker a discrete audio channel. It's what we did, its what BBP did, it takes some time but in the end its totally worth it. I haven't run wires in a new R5, but on our boat there was plenty of room to run wires down the sides of the boat. We just left the factory wire there didnt pull it out or anything.

Yes its a pain and yes cobalt should have done it right from the factory, but once you wire it right the improvement in sound is amazing.

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Did the same thing on our boat, and BBP's boat, and I think Tim's old 262.

Our 262 and 263 were the same.

+1 on Team Nauti's and BBP's wiring advice above.

It's what we did in a phase one install with a Rockford FOSGATE PMX-5 head unit & PMX-0R Helm and transom remote replacements and RF sub. Ran new wires.

It's what we are currently doing now in phase two using a Sinister SDX4 Wet Sounds amp in a 685 W bridged mono configuration to push REV 10 Wet Sounds tower speakers and a JL M800-8v2 8 channel amp pushing 6 JL AUDIO 7.7 M6 RGB LED cockpit/cuddy speakers and a 10” RF bridged mono sub.
Running new wires.

It's worth it Jeff.

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[Bfun220]

The good news is those two JL amps you have are a solid start. I would use those to power all the in boats and the towers 8 speakers 8 channels everyone gets 75 watts. Perfect.

I would then buy a M500/3 for the sub and the transom speakers. Transom Speakers get 75 watts each Sub gets the same 300 watts it getting now. Perfect.

That lets you continue to use the amps you have and provide good power to everything with no one sharing. See not bad, it's just adding a single amp.........and running all new speaker wire

For what's it worth, this is what I'd recommend.

[NautiGirl]

The good news is those two JL amps you have are a solid start. I would use those to power all the in boats and the towers 8 speakers 8 channels everyone gets 75 watts. Perfect.

I would then buy a M500/3 for the sub and the transom speakers. Transom Speakers get 75 watts each Sub gets the same 300 watts it getting now. Perfect.

That lets you continue to use the amps you have and provide good power to everything with no one sharing. See not bad, it's just adding a single amp.........and running all new speaker wire

For what's it worth, this is what I'd recommend.

BBP caught a typo on my last post - I was looking at the 2ohm ratings on the M500/3. At 4ohm its only 180 watts to the sub not 300.

Regardless its the same power that the sub is getting now w/ two channels bridged on a M400/4 so doesn't make a ton of difference, but I did want to point out that I was wrong and BBP was right. Your welcome buddy.

[jeffmeag]

Thanks everyone. The boat is not in my driveway, but at a storage unit only 5 min away, so easy to get too. I'm going today to dig around and see what I can figure out, then I'll see what way to go. I can take some photos of the towers, and no, I haven't looked at the wiring yet, they are up in the mounting brackets and not visible.

Sounds like running new wires may be the easiest (lol) and the m500/3 could solve the other problems. I'm sure I'll have more questions after I dig into it today.

[Big Block Power]

Thanks everyone. The boat is not in my driveway, but at a storage unit only 5 min away, so easy to get too. I'm going today to dig around and see what I can figure out, then I'll see what way to go. I can take some photos of the towers, and no, I haven't looked at the wiring yet, they are up in the mounting brackets and not visible.

Sounds like running new wires may be the easiest (lol) and the m500/3 could solve the other problems. I'm sure I'll have more questions after I dig into it today.

Awe Mr Nauti and I were talking off line and wanted to swing over to help. I just looked and noticed your in IL.
I'm sorry my services just ended. Lol

Where in IL are you located? What chain do you boat on?

[jeffmeag]

LOL, yep, FIP's, I understand. No, I'm located in central IL, not the Chicago area. Boat on a small local lake in Springfield mainly, some over on Shelbyville and at least once a summer over to Table Rock.

[Big Block Power]

LOL, yep, FIB's, I understand. No, I'm located in central IL, not the Chicago area. Boat on a small local lake in Springfield mainly, some over on Shelbyville and at least once a summer over to Table Rock.

Well cool. I think I have gone past the lake in Shelbyville a few times. Looks like a really nice lake. Come down to TRL this year for the regatta. We all will be there. Dam Fibs are going to take over. Lol

[jeffmeag]

OK, so here it goes, sorry this is going to be long and I'll try to explain what I found the best that I can.

First, there are actually 12 speakers plus the sub on the boat. 8 in the cockpit, 2 towers, and 2 transoms. I forgot about, or actually did not realize, that there are two small speakers above the main cockpit speakers next to the driver and passenger seats (pic below)

cockpit 2.jpg

Long and short is that I found each channel (with the exception of the bridged Sub) has two speakers tied to it. Below are the pics of each amp and a description of the speakers on each channel:

amp a.jpg

Channel 1 Red - Passenger lower cockpit and rear cockpit
Channel 2 Blue - Driver lower cockpit and rear cockpit
Channel 3 Green - Left Bow and passenger upper
Channel 4 Gray - Right Bow and driver upper

amp b.jpg

Channel 1-2 Silver - Bridged Amp
Channel 3 Green /White - Left transom and left tower
Channel 4 Blue - Right transom and right tower

Additionally, I took a look all around and there really is no way that I'm going to be able to tackle running new speaker wire/power wires on this boat. The curse of Cobalt's fit and finish is that there is not really any access to the speakers and it appears to be way too much trouble to try and run new wires, especially because the system does work.

I do have one final question before I just call this quits. In theory, since it is a 400 watt amp with 100 watts per channel, and each channel has two speakers, I'm guessing that means that each speaker is getting 50 watts?? If this is true, is there any benefit to replacing the amps with either 2 new 4 channels or 1 eight channel that delivers at least twice the watts per channel? With more watts, would each speaker be splitting more and receiving more? I hope this makes sense and I asking correctly? If I leave all the wires the way they are and increase the watts to each set of speakers with a bigger amp, does this work?

Again I apologize for my lack of knowledge, this may even be a silly question, but I appreciate your feedback.

[Big Block Power]

Ok I'm confused on the sub. You said it's tied to something else. If so what else is it tied to. Ok I might have read that wrong. That's the only 1 by itself.
So sad the towers are tied with the transom. I get why they did that.

[Big Block Power]

So it sounds like you are stuck with what you got to a point. Without rewiring this mess this is what you get.
Yep you are pushing maybe 50 ways to each of your lucky. So let's get some high hp amps in this baby. Lol
So with your tower speakers I'm thinking they just are not as efficient as the rest of them in your boat. Switching to jl towers 7 inch ones may help. It would be nice if we could get a test pair connected to them. But this might be your only choice. New amps New towers? Or just try jl towers and you might get by and be happy?

[jeffmeag]

Yeah, it does seem I might be stuck. Would love to try the jl 7's but not much point in buying them just to see if they are any better. If there are no other suggestions that might help, this may be the end of it.

[Big Block Power]

Yeah, it does seem I might be stuck. Would love to try the jl 7's but not much point in buying them just to see if they are any better. If there are no other suggestions that might help, this may be the end of it.

Just for kicks try unplugging the transom speakers to see if it makes any diff. Not sure if will work just opening up the circuit?

[Chrispval]

Sounds like just an amp problem as you laid out. Those amps are well designed and expensive so I wouldnt get rid of any JL amp. I would add an additional amp, so you end up with 1 channel per speaker. No sense in replacing the towers. The samson towers are worthy, if you power them properly.
I still think you need an amp that can handle the subwoofer, and have additional 4 channels.
If your not comfortable doing the work yourself, most any speaker shop can in about 3 hours install the breaker needed and a new additional amp And rework each channel for you. I would stick with JL. Whole job would likely cost $250 in labor and materials if you hand them the right amp. As for the right amp, I stand behind the m1000. Its what is needed for your setup.

[AsLan7]

Yeah, it does seem I might be stuck. Would love to try the jl 7's but not much point in buying them just to see if they are any better. If there are no other suggestions that might help, this may be the end of it.

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Jeff

All 12 of your speakers are most likely wired in SERIES. This is because the number of speakers on your boat (12) exceeds the number of amplifier channels on your two amps (4 channels x 2 M400 Amps = 8 available channels for 12 speakers). In other words Cobalt is combining two speakers together (in SERIES) before running them to the amp.


So just adding amps won’t dramatically increase volume because you have to “unwire” the SERIES connected speakers from each other. (Which are most likely all of them).

EXPLANATION:

Most of the time speakers are wired in PARALLEL meaning the positive terminal of one speaker connects to the positive output channel of the amp. The negative terminal of that same speaker connects to the negative output channel of the amp. If you have a 4 Ohm speaker (which many cars and boats utilize) and a 100 Watt per channel amp @ 4 Ohms then you’ll push that relative amount to the speaker. Easy.

If you combine TWO speakers in PARALLEL to one amp output channel you’ll get even louder volume but it requires more current flow from the amp because the speaker impedance gets cut in half. 4 ohm / 2 speakers = 2 Ohms. (technically you multiply together each individual impedance (4x4), then divide the result by the sum of the impedances (4+4) but the results are the same here.) Most amps cannot handle two Ohm loads running two speakers in PARALLEL to each output channel. Believe it or not your M400 is rated to push 4 channels at 2 Ohms. (JL Audio M400 Manual) This would really test that amps capabilities though!

So I believe Cobalt in its infinite wisdom decided to wire your speakers in SERIES. Like you mentioned earlier, this will dramatically cut down the volume. But this allows the amp to handle all 12 speakers easily. In a SERIES configuration the positive side wire of one speaker is connected to the positive channel output on the amp. The negative side of that same speaker is connected to the positive of the OTHER SPEAKER. Finally the negative of that other speaker is connected to the negative output channel on the amp. (Clear as mud? see diagram below) This has the effect of doubling your Ohms so you now have a less efficient speaker (4 Ohm x 2 speakers = 8 Ohms). Again volume (technically sensitivity) will be reduced dramatically in a SERIES configuration. (but your amp will more easily be able to keep up with the current flow required because of the increased resistance from the speaker(s).)
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SOLUTION:

Since it sounds like you’re not too concerned about “inside the boat” volume yet you want your “outside the boat”, Transom & Tower speakers louder, your goal is two fold:

1a. Get rid of the SERIES speaker connection (which is the nest team Nauti tried to undo on their boat before just giving up and rewiring the entire boat) on the speakers you want louder...the two on the Transom and the two on the Tower, so they can now be wired in a PARALLEL configuration.

2a. Using your existing second M400 with existing RCA connections; AND as long as your transom and tower speakers are at least 4 Ohms, try connecting these 4 speakers to your second M400 in a PARALLEL configuration by inserting both the tower speaker wires and the transom speaker wires into channel outputs 3 & 4.....again in a PARALLEL configuration as described above. This will require you to do a rewire from those particular speakers or use the existing wire and detach the SERIES connection between paired speakers. Use speaker output channel 3 for the left transom speaker & 4 for your right transom speaker. ...AND channel 3 for your left tower speaker and channel 4 for the right (yes you’re combining four speakers into two channels but this time in a PARALLEL configuration).
As you currently have it, use channels 1 & 2 to mono-bridge your sub.

Keep in mind that this will really task that 2nd M400 amp as it will need more current to keep up with this 2 ohm load, PARALLEL configuration on channels 3 & 4.


OR (what I would do to fix your problem)


1b same as 1a above.

2b. Like the Nautis mentioned you’ll need to ditch one JL M400 amp. It’s a great amp and you’ll be able to resell it to someone here or on Craigslist/ EBay. Keep your first M400 (the one in your pic showing your 8 in-boat speakers wired in Series and the one set of RCA inputs from the RF head unit). No need to touch that.
The other M400 showing the sub (gold wires) bridged will be taken out of the boat. It’s best to only run two amplifiers total vs three for reasons I will not go into.

Now pick up a JL M800/8 (or JLMV800/8 if you want to incorporate DSP) 8 channel Amp. . I actually prefer the less expensive JL M800/8. It’s $764.99 on Creative Audio or Crutchfield. If you use Creative ask for James Taylor and mention my name from the PM’s you and I exchanged.
Then connect the 4 RCA’s (connected in a slightly different configuration mentioned below) from the RF head-unit that were originally connected to the old M400 to the M800 (again as mentioned in the recommendation below).
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Insert the labeled 1 & 2 (Subwoofer out) RCA’s (from your picture posted in your earlier post) into RCA inputs 1&2 on the M800 (pictured above)
Then insert your bridged subwoofer into output channels 1 & 2. Easy.

Take RCA's 3 & 4 (as labeled in your picture) from the head unit and insert those into RCA inputs 3 & 4 on the M800. Now in a PARALLEL configuration insert one of your transom speaker wires into the + and - sides of speaker channel output 3. Insert the other transom speaker wire into the + and - sides of speaker output 4..








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Use the Zone 2 Line out RCA from your PMX-5 RF head unit (see diagram above) to connect your Tower speakers so you can control them separately with volume (or even turn them off at times if you desire (although BBP says he never does)) without affecting the rest of your in-boat speakers. Run the red and white RCA cable from this Zone 2 output to the M800 amp. Then add two Y Splitters (single female to dual male) to this newly run RCA cable. This will now convert them to four line outs. Connect those four to inputs 5, 6, 7, 8 on the M800. Then connect your Tower speakers in a bridged mono configuration for max volume to your wakeboarders. The positive of one Tower speaker connects to the speaker output 5 positive terminal channel. The negative side of that same speaker connects to the negative speaker output on the number 6 channel. Do the same with the other Tower speaker using channels 7 & 8 in a bridged mono configuration.



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Finally set the JL Audio M800 input mode amp switch (pictured above) to 8 CH allowing all 8 inputs to power all 8 output channels. Then make sure each channel is set on high pass (allowing higher frequencies to pass thru) on channels 3 thru 8. Set the filter frequency for each of those to 120 HZ allowing mostly higher frequencies on that spectrum to be directed to those higher range speakers.
Set channels 1 & 2 (your subwoofer) to low pass allowing the lower bass frequencies only to pass thru to the subwoofer. Use 80Hz initially as per the JL M800/8v2 Manual recommendation.


DONE



So for $750 ...minus what you get for your M400.... plus a little trial and error effort to eliminate series connected transom and tower speakers your goal will be met. ....Louder transom speakers on channels 3 & 4....and.....Louder and more powerful tower speakers bridged on 5 thru 8 with separate volume on those as well.

Hope this helps.

Again feel free to PM me or even better call James Taylor (yes that’s his real name ) at Creative Audio who is the expert on this stuff. He will be happy to talk you thru it or may even have other options. Here’s the link


Enjoy the music my friend

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