2016 Cobalt 210 or 220S? Power Options?

[AsLan7]

He said everyone quotes dead rise for boats (21 degrees for the 210/220, I believe), but he said that the measurement is taken at the stern and no one drives boats backwards into waves. He said a good measure of how a boat will perform on a rougher lake is its forward angle of attack. In my case, he felt unless I needed the extra space in the 220, the 210 was a better boat for my lake. He says it has more freeboard than the 220 and a more aggressive angle of attack.

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Well....Yes and no.

He’s correct in the fact that deadrise is measured at the transom.

Our first boat had a TRUE deep vee hull—-24 degree deadrise from bow to stern. It’s what made the Donzi and Cigarette boats so fast in rough water. ...& how they won so many races in adverse conditions. The boat rocked from side to side more (not as stable) yet cut through the water more effectively. At the time, 24 degrees was found to be the optimum combination of speed and stability. This hull was developed by Ray Hunt in the fifties & sixties.

http://www.huntdesigns.com/deepv.php



Then the variable (aka modified) deadrise hull came to be. Sacrifice some ride for more stability (so folks would not rock around as much) by varying the deadrise toward the bow. This is the most common hull for family boating...particularly in runabouts. Ie Cobalt.

Today, a deep vee is considered 20 degrees or more at the transom which then varies toward the bow up to 25 degrees with reverse chines to help with spray and stability.

The less deadrise, the more stability but the more pounding you’ll take. (Ski boats are a perfect example as they want the flat competition Ski wakes).

Yes, no one drives fast backwards.
What he fails to mention (really just a salesman tactic), is that when you’re up on plane moving along, the back third of the boat is in the water. Yes, deadrise back there matters if you don’t want the crap beat out of you.

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[BobRae99]

He said everyone quotes dead rise for boats (21 degrees for the 210/220, I believe), but he said that the measurement is taken at the stern and no one drives boats backwards into waves. He said a good measure of how a boat will perform on a rougher lake is its forward angle of attack. In my case, he felt unless I needed the extra space in the 220, the 210 was a better boat for my lake. He says it has more freeboard than the 220 and a more aggressive angle of attack.

.
Well....Yes and no.

He’s correct in the fact that deadrise is measured at the transom.

Our first boat had a TRUE deep vee hull—-24 degree deadrise from bow to stern. It’s what made the Donzi and Cigarette boats so fast in rough water. ...& how they won so many races in adverse conditions. The boat rocked from side to side more (not as stable) yet cut through the water more effectively. At the time, 24 degrees was found to be the optimum combination of speed and stability. This hull was developed by Ray Hunt in the fifties & sixties.

http://www.huntdesigns.com/deepv.php



Then the variable (aka modified) deadrise hull came to be. Sacrifice some ride for more stability (so folks would not rock around as much) by varying the deadrise toward the bow. This is the most common hull for family boating...particularly in runabouts. Ie Cobalt.

Today, a deep vee is considered 20 degrees or more at the transom which then varies toward the bow up to 25 degrees with reverse chines to help with spray and stability.

The less deadrise, the more stability but the more pounding you’ll take. (Ski boats are a perfect example as they want the flat competition Ski wakes).

Yes, no one drives fast backwards.
What he fails to mention (really just a salesman tactic), is that when you’re up on plane moving along, the back third of the boat is in the water. Yes, deadrise back there matters if you don’t want the crap beat out of you.

.

Great additional info. Thanks. B

[ajcampen]

Did they accept your offer? Are you the proud new owner?

[BobRae99]

Did they accept your offer? Are you the proud new owner?

I have a deal in place on the 210, but still waffling. I found two new 2017 220S WSS in another province which would avoid me having to pay the provincial tax (about $4,000USD), but at first dealer didn’t want to sell out of territory. I have a business address in that province though so they said they can deal with me. As far as I know, the dealers have 30% margin plus whatever other incentives there are at this time of year. I offered msrp less 30%, but they had some ridiculous freight and prep charges amounting to 14% of the boats msrp which I said we could deal with later. He is taking the offer to management so I’m waiting. It’s got a Merc 300 DP for power. Not my first choice but there it is. I’m meeting with my local dealer tomorrow to sit on both the 210 and 220 they have. I’ve built a basic 220 with V8/300 Volvo and asked them to price it. I guess I’ll see what they say and hopefully will have an answer from the out of town dealer tomorrow as well. This whole process is giving me a headache.

[Big Block Power]

I'll cross my fingers for you. I love the wss series

[BobRae99]

I'll cross my fingers for you. I love the wss series

I notice it’s discontinued for 2017. As close as I can tell, the WSS package gets you the tower/Bimini, special graphics and special stitching - all stuff I could do without. Is there something else in that package? I’ll wait to see what the dealer says tomorrow. If I can narrow the difference between the 210 and the 220 to $13,000 CAD ($11,000 USD) I’m inclined to spend the extra money. When I buy toys, my practice is to not finance, but rather pay cash and stick to a budget. I’m hoping this dealer comes through. If he does he is only 13 hours away and I can use a work truck to run out and get it and pull it home, so no transportation cost. Between that and the saves sales tax, the trailer would be paid for. I guess we’ll see what tomorrow brings.

[AsLan7]

I'll cross my fingers for you. I love the wss series

I notice it’s discontinued for 2017. As close as I can tell, the WSS package gets you the tower/Bimini, special graphics and special stitching - all stuff I could do without. Is there something else in that package? I’ll wait to see what the dealer says tomorrow. If I can narrow the difference between the 210 and the 220 to $13,000 CAD ($11,000 USD) I’m inclined to spend the extra money. When I buy toys, my practice is to not finance, but rather pay cash and stick to a budget. I’m hoping this dealer comes through. If he does he is only 13 hours away and I can use a work truck to run out and get it and pull it home, so no transportation cost. Between that and the saves sales tax, the trailer would be paid for. I guess we’ll see what tomorrow brings.

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Possibly a big day for you today BR99.
Keep us posted!
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[NautiGirl]

Good luck with the deal!

[BobRae99]

Good luck with the deal!

Thanks. Spent an hour looking at the 210 and the 220 at the dealership today. I told them if they can do a lightly equipped 220 V8/300 for $11,000 USD more than the price they gave me on the 210, I’d be inclined to move up. Problem is the trailer spec’d for the 210 is not really suitable for the 220 and the trailer cost is at least another $4,000. I’ll wait for the pricing to come back Monday before making a final decision.

With respect to power, the dealer doesn’t feel the V6/280 in either boat is a poor choice. He says everyone has a different preference but they delivered 15 Cobalts last season and 8 were 220S. All were powered with the V6/280 and every customer has been happy. He says it is an education thing with most customer having owned boats before being nervous about the V6/280. He says he hears a lot of concern about adequate power during the purchasing phase, but zero negative discussion about it afterward. I’ve heard this same sentiment from every dealer I’ve spoken to.

At this point, I think I’m leaning 80% toward the in stock 210, but I’ll wait until Monday to see what the total price difference between the boats will be.

Interestingly, the 2016 210 seems to have a bit more of a premium finish to it with the smoother vinyl and the finish on the dash. The new 220, less so. But the 220 really has a more open space mid ship with more flexible seating. You can add an extra seating spot in both boats by ordering a filler cushion.

I’m a bit torn. Cost of the 220 is higher, pushing my budget, but it has more space. The 210 is smaller but has a bit more of a premium feel and fits (with a trailer) neatly in my budget.

What I’d really like in the end (a few years down the road) is an R3 with a Volvo 350,so maybe I should just consider this boat a gateway to boating boat and get my feet wet with the 210.

Decisions, decisions. At least I’m feeling more comfortable with the V6/280 in the 210.

[Big Block Power]

Good luck with the deal!

Thanks. Spent an hour looking at the 210 and the 220 at the dealership today. I told them if they can do a lightly equipped 220 V8/300 for $11,000 USD more than the price they gave me on the 210, I’d be inclined to move up. Problem is the trailer spec’d for the 210 is not really suitable for the 220 and the trailer cost is at least another $4,000. I’ll wait for the pricing to come back Monday before making a final decision.

With respect to power, the dealer doesn’t feel the V6/280 in either boat is a poor choose. He says everyone has a different preference but they delivered 15 Cobalts last season and 8 were 220S. All were powered with the V6/280 and every customer has been happy. He says it is an education thing with most customer having owned boats before being nervous about the V6/280. He says he hears a lot of concern about adequate power during the purchasing phase, but zero negative discussion about it afterward. I’ve heard this same sentiment from every dealer I’ve spoken to.

At this point, I think I’m leaning 80% toward the in stock 210, but I’ll wait until Monday to see what the total price difference between the boats will be.

Interestingly, the 2016 210 seems to have a bit more of a premium finish to it with the smoother vinyl and the finish on the dash. The new 220, less so. But the 220 really has a more open space mid ship with more flexible seating. You can add an extra seating spot in both boats by ordering a filler cushion.

I’m a bit torn. Cost of the 220 is higher, pushing my budget, but it has more space. The 210 is smaller but has a bit more of a premium feel and fits (with a trailer) neatly in my budget.

What I’d really like in the end (a few years down the road) is an R3 with a Volvo 350,so maybe I should just consider this boat a gateway to boating boat and get my feet wet with the 210.

Decisions, decisions. At least I’m feeling more comfortable with the V6/280 in the 210.

If that's your feeling go older used and move up to a R3. But your going to have beat me to that r3 350 lol
Why take the Hit twice. Buy a slightly used 222 with a 5.7gi.lol

[BobRae99]

Good luck with the deal!

Thanks. Spent an hour looking at the 210 and the 220 at the dealership today. I told them if they can do a lightly equipped 220 V8/300 for $11,000 USD more than the price they gave me on the 210, I’d be inclined to move up. Problem is the trailer spec’d for the 210 is not really suitable for the 220 and the trailer cost is at least another $4,000. I’ll wait for the pricing to come back Monday before making a final decision.

With respect to power, the dealer doesn’t feel the V6/280 in either boat is a poor choose. He says everyone has a different preference but they delivered 15 Cobalts last season and 8 were 220S. All were powered with the V6/280 and every customer has been happy. He says it is an education thing with most customer having owned boats before being nervous about the V6/280. He says he hears a lot of concern about adequate power during the purchasing phase, but zero negative discussion about it afterward. I’ve heard this same sentiment from every dealer I’ve spoken to.

At this point, I think I’m leaning 80% toward the in stock 210, but I’ll wait until Monday to see what the total price difference between the boats will be.

Interestingly, the 2016 210 seems to have a bit more of a premium finish to it with the smoother vinyl and the finish on the dash. The new 220, less so. But the 220 really has a more open space mid ship with more flexible seating. You can add an extra seating spot in both boats by ordering a filler cushion.

I’m a bit torn. Cost of the 220 is higher, pushing my budget, but it has more space. The 210 is smaller but has a bit more of a premium feel and fits (with a trailer) neatly in my budget.

What I’d really like in the end (a few years down the road) is an R3 with a Volvo 350,so maybe I should just consider this boat a gateway to boating boat and get my feet wet with the 210.

Decisions, decisions. At least I’m feeling more comfortable with the V6/280 in the 210.

If that's your feeling go older used and move up to a R3. But your going to have beat me to that r3 350 lol
Why take the Hit twice. Buy a slightly used 222 with a 5.7gi.lol

I've had one reply on this thread from an owner with the V6/280 setup and he says he's had good performance. I guess what is good for one, might not be good for others. Based on the dealers I've spoken to and the threads I've read, I think this combination will be fine. I'm buying this lightly equipped 2016 210 for $55,000 CAD ($44,000USD). I haven't seen any 210s for sale in Canada with V8/300 but I have seen some V8/270s. I've seen some used 200's for sale in western Canada, one was for $58,000CAD, the other was $62,000CAD, equipped with mere 4.5 250 engines. one sold near asking, the other is still for sale. Based on that, I don't think I'll be taking much of a hit on a 210 that was bought for $55,000 new.

As for the 222, I think I prefer the newest boat I can get over power that I may or may not need for my use.

I appreciate your perspective on power though. i'll be making the purchase subject to a sea trial.

[Big Block Power]

I'm happy for you no matter what boat you end up with. It will be nice to hear how your season goes no matter what you buy. Can't wait till summer.

[Fun2Fish]

Shorelander is a ok trailer. Sea Ray used them and may still use them.
Power is different to all people. On my 2004 Cobalt 200 It pulled the kids all day long no real issues with the 350 mag 300hp. But I hated it compared to my crownline 202 with the same engine. For some reason the engine in the cobalt just seemed like it was weak. It had a b3 drive and was a dog out of the hole loaded up. The crown had a alpha 1 with a rev4 prop and was a rocket. So I know I expect more out of my power plant than most. Heck I wasn't happy with a 8.1gi in my 220. I'm personally boat alot like you and same water I just couldn't imagine the v6 I hope it works for you and prove me wrong.
Also a very valid point on the dealer. I'm lucky my best friend owns one here. Also I've never needed him either on all of my boats.

I was perusing this forum today and came across a link to an article written by a Cobalt (and other makes) dealer(Hoffmaster) comparing Mercruiser power and Volvo Penta. What was interesting in the article was that the marina owner/boat dealer (Joe Hoffmaster) offers an opinion on suggested power, based on boat weight. For boats in the 210 and 220 weight class he recommended a 5 - 5.7L engine. The article was written quite a few years ago and on a whim, I called the dealer and got Joe on the phone. Joe immediately told me that the article was written well before the current generation of Volvo Penta engines. In his opinion (and exact words) he said, the entire game has changed in the last 5 years with today’s V6/280 outperforming a 5L V8 from 5 years ago. He said the V6 280 easily outperforms the previous V8/270 and approached the performance of the old V8/300. In his exact words: “that V6/280 is a monster compared to earlier engines”. He said the combination of variable valve timing and direct fuel injection has increased torque and made the torque band wider across the power band. So while this engine isn’t as powerful as today’s V8/300, he feels it is more than adequate to carry 6 people while popping an adult skier out of the water.

I asked Joe why I was having difficulty finding new boats (220) with the V8/300, with most being equipped with the V6/280, even in boats costing $81,000USD? His answer was despite initial resistance, that package has been successful since 2016 and they haven’t had complaints.

There is no doubt that more power can never hurt, but that in this case it’s likely not necessary for most. Joe said something else that I found interesting with respect to boat selection for my large lake. He said everyone quotes dead rise for boats (21 degrees for the 210/220, I believe), but he said that the measurement is taken at the stern and no one drives boats backwards into waves. He said a good measure of how a boat will perform on a rougher lake is its forward angle of attack. In my case, he felt unless I needed the extra space in the 220, the 210 was a better boat for my lake. He says it has more freeboard than the 220 and a more aggressive angle of attack.

So, all of this is just one guys opinion and I appreciate there are many boater on this forum who might not agree with Joe’s view. But.. Joe has no angle with expressing his views as he knows I won’t be buying a boat from him. He was just being helpful. With my local dealer trying to sell me a boat, I was concerned he would say anything about the powertrain to get the boat sold. After speaking to Joe today, I feel more confident that the power in this new 210 is not a poor decision. I will, of course be making the sale subject to a sea trial, but for now, I think this boat is the best choice for me when budget is considered.

As I’ve said before though, I appreciate yours and everyone’s input.

PS Joes article: http://www.hoffmasters.com/power.html

I like engine talk. I ordered a new 220 with the V8/300hp, had the chance to test drive one and was really impressed. My parents have had a couple different cobalt over the years, the latest one being a 226 with the 454/310hp and that boat was pretty speedy with good top end perf. I would go as far to say the new V8 with the updates is every bit as powerful as the 454 (I know some will disagree) I've heard a lot of good things about the new V6/280hp.

Good luck on your new boat!

[AsLan7]

I would go as far to say the new V8 with the updates is every bit as powerful as the 454 (I know some will disagree)

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I would absolutely agree F2F.

Volvo Penta has developed a marinized 6.2 liter small block engine that pumps out 430hp! Lighter, more powerful,and improved torque band over older big blocks. Impressive.

Still waiting on Merc to follow suit. Until then, folks will have to pay $8-10k more for this 2017 beast over the 380 HP software degrade version.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smmk6at0uks

[BobRae99]

Hi Guys,

I know some of you will be disappointed (hopefully I won't be) but I've made a deal on the left over 2016 Cobalt 210 with the V6/280. I've considered the 220 V8/300 but the difference in $CAD with trailer and taxes is over $26,000 ($21,000 USD) and for a first boat I think that is just too much for me $90,000 CAD ($72,000USD).

From my perspective, if the boat is a bit low on power, or I could have used a bit more space, that is something that can be fixed 3 years down the road with a trade in. My kids are 8 and 11 and for the next 5 years, regardless of having 4 adults in the boat, I doubt I'll have much difficulty pulling either child out of the water on skis or on a tube.

I money was no object, I think I'd have gone up to a 220 V8, but it is, so there you have it.

The boat has a dual battery switch and batteries and the dealer will be replacing the batteries with new. I'm not sure if it has gas sitting in the tank from the factory, but if it does, I assume they will be removing that as well. I haven't signed the sales contract yet so anything else you think I need to add in I'm all ears.

Thanks for everyone's help.